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 johnny127 |
Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? |
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Posts: 2898 (03/06/06 23:46:20) |
Which is the Problem? The Parents or the refs? Are 'homer' refs out there or are the parents sore losers and are to 'into it'?
This Question Will Remain "Open" Until Monday Night March 13, 2006 Submitted By A Registered Member |
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johnny127 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 2898 (03/08/06 11:43:58) |
I believe there may be a degree of both here. I will go into more detail but felt someone needed to start this off.
JK |
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TeresaZ |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 30 (03/08/06 13:22:42) |
I think there are definitely both! We have had some really terrific referees this year, who have gone out of their way to ensure a good clean game. And then we have had some referees who have literally taken the game away from the kids. It's a wonderful thing when the referees call a clean game regardless of win or loss. It's a horrible thing when a referee influences the game so much that they ruin it for everyone.
That being said, would YOU want to be a referee in today's game? Kids yelling at you, coaches cursing at you, parents treating you like crap? I commend anyone who even shows up in the referee's stripes - even if they're horrible refs. They obviously have much thicker skin than I do. I do think that referee's need continual progressive training too - each year they should be mandated to take some sort of "refresher" course - rules change, the game changes. 
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Hockey Angel |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 97 (03/09/06 00:18:44) |
I totally agree with TeresaZ. You have both--homer refs and whining parents. My son has been playing travel hockey now for 5 years. I've never experieinced homer refs until this year. I actually tried to convince myself that it was me because I didn't want to become the stereotypic "whining parent". But my heavens...there were just too many of them. I have to say also--this is the first year we played AAA and could that be the difference? Is it because the field is on a higher competitive level? Or was it just a fluke? Can anyone comment? My experience with Michigan refs was really eye-opening. We met some incredible parents, coaches who play in Michigan, Wisconsin, St. Louis and Ohio. Some of the Michigan parents agreed with us and said that its something that you just have to get used to when you play here. We actually had Ohio parents yelling at their own refs about calling it both ways. That has NEVER happened to me before. Keep in mind this was only some of the parents viewpoint. Again, I just kept trying to believe it was me because I could deal with that. And I could stop the behavior. But when we played in a game and the ref actually called a penalty on our team against a player who wasn't even on the ice I couldn't get past it. This particular player was being targeted by the refs the entire game. Sometimes for valid penalties. Sometimes for the refs pleasure. The worst place we dealt with bad refs was in our own rink. Why? Because we had a coach who would badger them. So I don't blame them for their reaction to his behavior. No. But I do blame them when they started calling penalties on our team that weren't warranted and allowed the other team to beat us into the boards because they wanted to get back at our coach. Why not just kick him out of the game and make him leave the bench. I don't thnk that was fair to the kids. If a child disrespects a ref, he should be hauled out of the rink and not allowed to play 2-3 games. That should not be tolerated and I can completely understand why refs get so frustrated. But they need to know that the likelihood of that happening is high going in and they need to learn to channel their frustration in a different direction. I would imagine burn out happens quick. Personally, I felt that our coach should have been tossed from at least 7 or 8 games. That would have been fair because he was the one harrassing the refs. I don't know. What do you all think? Would I want to be a ref in youth hockey? Absolutely not. Again, I think the only way to correct these issues is to become more responsible. AAA at least should have seasoned refs who can take the "heat" when coaches and players act up. I know what AA refs get paid. Do AAA refs get paid any higher?
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NHL Trivia |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 163 (03/09/06 19:46:10) |
There is both. However, I have seen games where the first 2 periods are completely turned to one side. And then the last period, the refs call the game favoring the other team. I think refs do this because their worried they might get a 'bias' reputation. Honesly, the refs in the other states in the midwest are better than Illinois. And even better in Canada. I wonder why this could be?
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winner2006 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 194 (03/09/06 19:50:41) |
NHL Trivia said, "Honesly, the refs in the other states in the midwest are better than Illinois. And even better in Canada. I wonder why this could be?"
Well, the answer to this is the guy that's the head of the referring in Illinois. He heads the pro shop in Orland Park. He allows all of this to happen because he doesn't pay attention to the coach's evaluation nor does he even have a good training program in place. That's just my opinoin.
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street fighter09 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 161 (03/09/06 20:03:19) |
It's the 'Whining Parents'! Every Illinois AA or AAA game you go to, there are parents crying over calls. The parents need to recognize that the ref sees a different point of view of the game than you do from the stands. You can see everything from the stands, but the ref can only see a limited amount of stuff on the ice.
Some of these parents live and die over youth hockey. When you do that you put ALOT of PRESSURE on your kid. Soon enough he starts to hate the game. Then, he loses interest. That's why Illinois doesn't develop as many hockey players as Minnesota does, it's because of the attitude of the parents. I bet MinMom2 can come on here and tell you what I just said because it's the truth. True, Minnesota does have a psycho here and there, but there are a lot more in Illinois. She's right when she said in another thread that "Minnesota parents are somewhat more knowleadgable about youth hockey." They understand it's about developing at the young ages, and not about how many games you win. The parents here seem to be concerned with the amount of games you win, by blaming the game on the refs. That's like saying, "Steve Bartmann cost the Cubs the 2003 World Series." We (Illinois) might be the ones killing Minnesota teams at the young levels. But, they get the last laugh when their kids are still playing in College. Maybe I'll become a someday.
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johnny127 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 2898 (03/09/06 20:38:25) |
I just wanted to point out something I noticed myself when in Canada for the Golden Horseshoe. I forgot how much I loved the ref's there! It seemed they took great pride in what they were doing and it wasn't just a paycheck. I mean they were outstanding to us coaches and would even chat with the kids on the bench about whatever, it was really cool. I even got chatting with one of them and learned that the other ref in that game was his father. Again - Way Cool I thought!
Anyone know why the ref's are like night and day up there? Or did I just happen to be at a tournament that was a rare find? Thanks - JK |
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The Prediktor |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 118 (03/09/06 21:06:35) |
The refs are forced to be committed in Canada. Here in Illinois, we have a lollypop head of ref's dude that doesn't force anyone to be committed. Every year, I see a BHC game in which a ref ditches, leaving one ref by himself. Then, the game gets delayed until they find another ref. 2 years ago, a Bantam BHC game was postponed due to a ref's no show. Same story for CYA-TI 92's this year.
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johnny127 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 2898 (03/10/06 09:33:16) |
What does anyone think can be done to change things here in Illinois? I would love to know how much better/worse things are up in Minny? Our friend from up north should be able to shine more light on the matter. Thanks!
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MinMom2 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 31 (03/10/06 09:39:41) |
We haven't seen too much of the 'homer ref' mentality here, a bit in Wisco when we go there to play. One game my son got a penalty-the two ref's couldn't agree on elbowing or roughing-so he got both. Homer reffing or inexperience, not sure which that one was.
I have to agree that watching games in Minnesota is considerably more enjoyable here, than in Illinois. Mostly because they let the game happen and don't worry so much about the outcome. We had one 'yeller' on our team and the coach took care of that during the first game of the season! We do have older ref's doing our games here, so that may be of help as well. These guys will often toss a parent at the first sign of trouble--talk about ZERO tolerance!! |
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johnny127 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 2898 (03/10/06 09:51:45) |
Quote: Wow someone who understands the effect this actually has IF enforced! I have spoke about so many situations in just about all the rinks that if ONLY someone would step up and enforce a rule already in place there would be a better environment for all. Maybe we could create a room with a view of the ice that is closed off with sound proofing and call it the Whining room where anyone can go to get it out of there system then return to the arena where all other "adults" sit and watch the game?? I know emotion is a strong force but as adults so is control. Questions?? Did our parents whine as much as their children do now? I can't seem to recall that atmosphere but had they I would think I would have learned to become that way myself. I also think that my focus on the game at hand wouldn't have been as good as if they were screaming like I've see in today's world. Just my thoughts.... JK |
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Trixie |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 70 (03/11/06 11:19:34) |
I agree.
Just like raising a child, following through and enforcing the consequences when someone violates zero tolerance would make it a better game for all. Right now, from my experience, zero tolerance is a joke in Illinois. Someone has got to be the leader out there and establish the limits and get this, ENFORCE THEM. We have all been to games where the reffing seems to be one sided or calls that are consistently questionable throughout the game. It happens. Unfortunately, it's part of the game. Let's face it, we're human. All of us make mistakes. Even with instant replays with other sports on TV, we originally thought we saw it one way, then once in a while learn it what we thought we saw we didn't actually see. That being said, I do remember when my son was on a very good PeeWee team, making a trek out to a particular rink where we knew we could possibly lose against a clearly less skilled team because of the "home cookin" that the refs. at this rink seemed to offer. Not much you can do about it except play your game, and as a team, play as clean as you can to avoid the ref's becoming one of the key "players" in the game. I personally believe the whining parents are the biggest issue though. My kid has played on highly competitive teams...teams where you get the impression that many of the parents thought they "owned" the team, and therefore could say anything they wanted. Teams where anything less than a "W" was unacceptable. Using the word "whining" was an understatement. Screaming, yelling, berating--not just when there was a questionable or bad call, but for the duration of the game. How embarrassing. And yet nothing is done. I would have loved to toss them out of the rink so that for once and for all, these people would be called on their behavior, and I was a parent from the same team! I want to ask some of these people, have you ever known a Ref to change his decision based on your reactions? Do you think if you yell constantly at the Ref. you are making him love you or the team you're cheering for? If anything, I've noticed that it does the opposite, and I can't say I blame the ref. for adding fuel to the fire. I've also seen some of my kid's friends who liked to Ref., but quit after a game when a coach went on like a wild banshee at the young Refs. during a mite game. This is inexcusable. No wonder we're in need of more Ref's! If zero tolerance were ENFORCED the way that it was meant to be...if EVERYONE cleaned up their act, the game would be so much better for ALL involved. Zero tolerance SHOULD mean just that-Zero tolerance. In my opinion, right now it's just a great big ZERO. Means nothing. Zip. Nada. But then again, this is just my opinion from the cheap seats!  |
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Hockey Angel |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 97 (03/11/06 12:53:22) |
Loved your response as well as Johnny127's post. I completely agree. Hockey Angel
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Trixie |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 70 (03/11/06 14:05:18) |
Thanks Angel...
To answer Johnny's question...did our parents whine as much? No, my parents NEVER whined. We were taught to be respectful by consistently witnessing their behavior. In fact, I can't once remember in my youth any parent misbehaving, screaming/yelling during a event. I remember people cheering positively, but I believe everyone held the same understanding that we were playing a "game" and that with every game, there's a winner and a loser, and losing isn't the end of the world, you just come back ready to play your best game next time. And no one would every think of disrespecting or questioning a game official back then. In fairness, it was a different time. Sports weren't as competitive when I was growing up, and there were definitely less adults involved, less money involved, and pressure to produce. Participating in sports was just for "fun" for most of us. Now everyone thinks their kid is on the road to the next college scholarship and basic civility goes out the window. |
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luv2dance18 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 194 (03/12/06 10:06:43) |
I feel it's both - bad refs compel the whining parents to become abusive parents. Whining parents compel refs to make calls they may not have. We don't seem to have a system of properly trained refs, refs that are too young to handle the abuse from parents and/or coaches and parents and coaches who think they act however they want with no repurcussion. I've recently witnessed a zero tolerance incident at a wrestling tournament; a call was made, the parent of the child was not happy, the ref stopped the match and the parent was escorted out of the arena. NO ifs and or buts about it. The ref did restart the match until the parent was out of the building.
Unfortunately, Zero Tolerance is needed in all sports - to protect the kids and stop any abusive behavior by a coach or parent. If these rules would be inforced more often, it would seem to set a different tone at games. Then whining parents, abusive coaches, kids that talk back to refs would not be acceptable, tolerated and punishment enforced. It would also help get parents/fans that have been drinking in the rink under control also. The abusive behavior in the stands would come to an end. I've seen a kid's mom, yell at a teammate's dad who was coming off the ice who said something unkind to the coach. And these parents are teammates! I've heard a squirt player call another player a fu**** a**h****. What 10 or 11 year old is allowed to use that kind of language so freely? No wonder there is no respect for refs. They don't even respect each other. I do feel the refs need better training and more support from their own association. If they are not getting that, why should they be required to perform better or deal with problem parents, kids or coaches. Our parents didn't seem to whiners for all of the reasons above - sports not as competetive as they are today, we respect our parents, persons in position of authority and our friends. We weren't allowed to talk back to any adult without some discipline being enforced. No accountability, bad behaviour by the coaches, parents and kids and refs who are too young or inexperienced to handle all of it. The refs definitely see a different view than the parents in the stand. Also the coaches. I love to be in the stands and listen to parents complain about "didn't the coach see that" "why is my kid sitting, it's his shift" and yelling at their kid to "GET UP" "Skate, Skate" "Shoot the puck"! Like the coach and the kid don't know what they're doing. The coaches see everything that goes on, they talk to kids about "mistakes" they make and they may "bench" a kid for a shift for some reason the parent knows nothing about. What goes on from that side of the bench is completely unknown to the whining parents in the stands. It cracks me up listening to the parents. You think the kid doesn't know he needs to get up if he falls or is knocked down? Or that if he gets the puck he needs to skate it or pass it down the ice? Or that they wouldn't love to take a shot everytime they have the puck? It just doesn't work that way. And for parents to screaming at their kid from the stands doesn't help either. So I guess my feeling it is a combination of parents, kids and refs. They all need to be held accountable for their behaviour on and off the ice. Sorry for the rambling. Guess I needed to get a few things off my chest! Glad there's a place I can do that.  
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NHL Trivia |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 163 (03/13/06 19:06:39) |
end it off jk!
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johnny127 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 2898 (03/14/06 06:54:42) |
This will be the final thought on this topic for the Archives version of this debate. It remains open here for anyone Registered to still give any thoughts and/or concerns on this topic.
Not having any children myself I can't really understand the whinning aspect of hockey but I do "get" the emotion that a sport like ours brings to the stands. I also can't say if the refs are giving "home" advantage to home teams. I do believe there seems to be too much interest from the stands causing some of the whinning and too little interest from the refs to be as effective as they could be. So in closing I think the only thought that pops to mind for both is: "Let Them Play" & Enjoy This Wonderful Sport! JK- |
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big7stars |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 31 (03/26/06 09:56:07) |
In Minnesota they have implemented a proram called HEP Hockey Education Program. If a parent gets out of hand the ref warns him one or her one time and the second being ejection from the arena and if the parent does not leave his childs team could be made to forfiet the game. Also here we have a program that is a Fair Play point, If say a pee wee team takes less that 12 minutes in penalties you get an extra point in the league standings. To me the draw back is you get one check from behind you are only allowed one more penaty and then your team does not recieve the point. This year one of these points was the differnce between us winning the league championship. Next year Minnesota is making it mandatory in Invitational tournaments also.
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street fighter09 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 161 (04/08/06 12:44:53) |
I disagree with the Minnesota rule. Then, the kids are too worried of how hard or soft they should play instead of just going out there and playing the game of hockey.
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winner2006 |
Re: Question #2 - Homer Refs or Whining Parents? | ||
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Posts: 194 (04/08/06 13:06:56) |
Minnesota rule is stupid. Could make a huge difference in the standings. That's not right.
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